Category Archives: The Rules

Rules debate

Hi everyone,

I have turned off the comments for the post “Rule #5 Don’t Call Him and Rarely Return His Calls“. I think a bunch of good points have been brought up, both about this particular rule and The Rules in general, and I don’t think any more hashing out needs to happen.

In fact one of the reasons I quit updating this blog was because I got tired of The Rules project, because The Rules themselves are tiresome. I mainly see them as somewhat helpful guidelines for clueless women, with much silliness thrown in.

Apparently, a new edition is coming out in a couple of months. At some point I will read it and report on it. In the meantime, I’d like to know if you get anything out of this blog and want you’d like to read on. Book reviews? Specific topics? Dating? Singleness?

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Filed under Personal, The Rules

OSC vs The Rules vs The Game

One of my favorite writers is Orson Scott Card. Hopefully you have read Ender’s Game, but if you have not, then you should run out immediately and buy it. Besides having written many wonderful books, for the last 12 years he has written a column about… everything. I started reading along at a tender age right when it first got going, so OSC is one of my greatest influences, in ways both small and great.

I’ve linked to his stuff on occasion, most recently his entertaining smack-down of the movie Think Like a Man. OSC did not like that the movie employed the tiresome trope about men always being in the wrong and women always being in the right. This movie is based on a popular self-help book by Steve Harvey that OSC mentions is not very good. OSC much prefers He’s Just Not That Into You, which is also a favorite here at Datingwise. In the essay OSC also gives a thumb down to The Rules, mentioning that it is based on “manipulation instead of candid conversation”.

Loyal readers hopefully know that here at Datingwise, I endorse The Rules, tho with reservations. I have never, ever found a man that will agree with them, and I don’t expect to. So I would advise ladies who follow them to avoid mentioning that to men.

Instead of manipulative, I prefer to view The Rules as an effort to regain a lost script for courtship.

As the writers of The Rules point out, men may say that they hate them but once you start following them, they work. Indeed, in another column, OSC mentions how his wife came to be Mrs Card.

 I had my years as a jerk of a single guy, who called — or didn’t — without any relationship to what I said I would do. But then I grew up. Suddenly, at the ripe old age of 24, I realized that I didn’t like the dating game. I didn’t like pursuing women till I got them and then wondering what in the world to do with them. I was ready to be a grownup.

So I went over to see the smartest, most independent, and — for me, at least — best woman I ever dated, whom I had broken up with about six months before, and I …

Proposed to her.

Yep. Because I knew that she would have to have some kind of proof that I had changed, and this time I was serious. She made me wait four-and-a-half months for an answer. And during the interim, she didn’t exactly roll out the red carpet for me. All was not instantly forgiven.

Gee… that sounds familiar. What his wife did is right out of The Rules: OSC was attracted to the independent woman who didn’t make it easy for him… And by doing so, the suddenly serious OSC stuck around.

Was she manipulating him? It doesn’t sound like OSC thinks so! No, she did the right thing, letting him prove his worth to her.

I suppose there are women who could employ The Rules in order to get married and who don’t really care about who will play the role of husband. And I do think that if you blindly do The Rules, you could end up with someone you don’t really care about because he’s some sort of über hunter Alpha Male who does enjoy the chase and you have enjoyed being chased. But for the most part, that’s not what they are about. They contain some insight into male psychology that many post-feminism women have no clue about.

Let’s contrast that to The Game/Roissy, which is the opposite of The Rules. Never tell a decent woman you have read The Game or Roissy. She will get pissed or be horrified, because you wanna talk about manipulation? It’s here in spades.

Roissy has a famous post about how to treat attractive women: http://heartiste.wordpress.com/the-sixteen-commandments-of-poon/.

What part of those rules has anything to do with friendship or love or affection? They are extremely condescending and misogynistic. Make her jealous. Date around in order not to be “too in” to her. Don’t be generous with her. Don’t be afraid to lose her.

If you don’t have a problem with these “commandments”, imagine that they are about your daughter, sister, niece, or any female you have affection for.

Those commandments are not a recipe for a good relationship or marriage. If you want a relationship based on psychodrama, be my guest.

You might point out that The Games isn’t about long-term relationships. But, I know guys who are good at getting women into bed but who look at their happily married friends with sadness and envy at what they have, and do not understand why that doesn’t happen to them. They don’t realize that treating women as sexual outlets is not how you treat women when you want to court them.

Now, just like The Rules, The Game has insight into female psychology. I can think of quite a few men who could use some pointers on how to flirt with women, quit putting them on a pedestal, and stop being doormats.  But the end game of The Game is to get a woman into bed; to exploit them. And in our promiscuous times, I think that happens much, much more often than women “manipulating” men into marrying them.

OSC understandably is against any advice that causes people to be deceitful with each other. I view the PUA advice as more destructive than The Rules.

What people ultimately want is to be with some they love and admire and who is with them for the same reasons. I hope that if women employ some of the tips in The Rules they can weed out the men who are in it for a fling.

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Filed under Dating, Female dignity, Men, Relationships, The Rules

Rule #5 Don’t Call Him and Rarely Return His Calls

This rule falls squarely under the “don’t chase men” premise. If he’s not calling you, he’s not that interested. Don’t call him to talk or to ask him out.

If you make things really easy for a guy, you’re never going to know if you’re with someone who really cares about you, or if he’s with you because he’s too lazy or apathetic to seek a mate. Better to be alone than in a relationship like that.

He has to learn that if he doesn’t ask you out when he sees you he might not reach you on the phone so soon and not see you for a week or two. It’s not that you’re impossible to get, you’re just hard to get. Remember, you’re very busy with activities and other dates and you make plans ahead of time. But don’t reprimand him for not calling sooner by saying, “If you had called earlier…” Just say, “Really, I’d love to, but I can’t”.

(He’ll figure out he’ll have to call sooner.)

You’re not supposed to call men after dates that went well, either. Don’t call “just to see how he’s doing” or with some other silly excuse. If he likes you, he’ll call again for a date. If not, his loss.

Edited: I’m getting a lot of the same comments complaining about the manipulative aspect of this advice, with which I concur. Check the comments section before posting. Thanks!

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Filed under Book Reviews, Dating, Female dignity, Men, The Rules

Rule #4 – Don’t Meet Him Halfway or Go Dutch on a Date

Who pays for the date gets to the core of the loss of the script and can elicit uncomfortable feelings. Some men get offended when women offer to pay for their meal, others are offended when they don’t. What’s a girl to do?

The Rules say that women should not pay for anything on the first three dates. The Rules would definitely disagree, but 0n the first date I reach for my purse when the bill arrives. If he is OK with spliting, I loose any interest in seeing him again (tho typically I’ve already come to that conclusion anyway). It’s not a matter of entitlement or punishment, it’s just a natural reaction that means “this guy is lame”.

Men, if you’re wondering why you should pay for dates, here’s why:

1. It shows that you have financial resources and that you are willing to share those with a lady.

2. It makes the woman feel special and taken care of.

3. Friends split the bill. If you’re interested in being something more, going dutch sends the wrong signal.

4. If you feel resentful of the money you spend on dates, that shows that you’re probably Just Not That Into Her.

5. If she doesn’t express appreciation, that’s a good indication of her character; that she feels entitled.

Consider also that to prep for dates, women will spend money on makeup, manicures, pedicures, dresses, skirts, hair removal, and the salon. Women spend money on one or more of these things because if they are into you, they want you to be attracted to her. (Doing these things also make women feel better about themselves which will help their confidence during the date.)

If women spend money to impress men by the way they look, then it’s really not fair to expect women to pay for their meal or ticket to a show. That means that they ends up spending more money than the guy for dates.

Once the relationship is established, it’s OK for women to pay for coffee, or pay for the meal or cook on special occasions. But whereas women feel special and taken care of when a man pays, when women take upon the role of spending money on men, it doesn’t make them feel the same way. When men are really into you, they’re going to enjoy making you happy by taking you out. And when women have to play the role of treating men they become resentful of having to chase men and spending their finances to court him.

A lot of women make more money than men, especially in their 20s. What to do about this imbalance? I think it depends. If the guy is poorer because he’s in a low-paying job that he loves or he’s in school, the fact that she makes more shouldn’t necessarily make her pause, but she shouldn’t expect fancy dates very often. If he’s poorer because of lack of ambition, that’s a red flag.

~.~

Tucked into this chapter are a few paragraphs telling women that men will go out of their way to see them if they are in to you. This has very much been my experience. Even if you live in an inconvenient part of town, he will come pick you up. If he doesn’t or he complains, He Just Not That Into You.

~.~

P.S. If you’re dating a woman and she doesn’t make an effort to doll herself up, she’s Just Not That Into You.

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Filed under Book Reviews, Dating, Female dignity, Men, The Rules

Rule #3 Don’t Stare at Men or Talk Too Much

(Part of a series discussing The Rules.)

Some women talk a lot. They open their mouths and a never-ending torrent comes out. This can be amusing around other women, but not so wonderful for enchanting men on a date.

The reason this rule exists is for the following reasons:

1. Many men find it tiresome to be with a woman who won’t shut up.

2. You may say things that are best said in later dates or never at all.

3. It keeps men from shining and trying to impress you.

4. You won’t be able to learn as much about him. For example, had you been relatively quiet and demure, would he had asked you about yourself, your work, and your interests? Or would he have blathered on about himself?

Good reminder:

Don’t feel you have to be entertaining or have interesting conversation all the time. He will think that you’re trying too hard. Just be there. […] If anything, men should be the ones scrambling their brains to come up with clever lines, asking you a lot of questions, and wondering or not they’re keeping you interested.

 

 

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Filed under Book Reviews, Dating, Female dignity, Men, The Rules

Rule #2 – Don’t Talk to a Man First (and Don’t Ask Him to Dance)

This is a rule with exceptions. It’s a rule with exceptions because not all women live their lives obsessed with getting married. Some women, for example, believe that politeness and hospitality are more important than avoiding greeting a strange man and risking “interfering with whatever was supposed to happen or not happen, perhaps causing a conversation to occur that was never meant to be”.

Also, no one goes to dances in this day and age. Those social events went the way of the dodo and the cocktail party. The only people who dance any more are people involve in tango or swing dance communities. At least in swing, it’s OK to ask guys to dance because you’re not typically there to find a boyfriend.

However. Where I do agree with The Rules is rationalizing that a guy isn’t talking to you because “he’s shy” or some such. If he really is too shy to talk to you, he’s not marriage material.

I’ve heard guys say that they wish women would talk to them first or hit on them instead of the other way around. They say that they are flattered when it happens. But what does that really mean? Being flattered means you’re primping someone’s ego. It doesn’t mean that he’s going to fall in love with you. Men are going to fall in love with whoever they fall in love with. No amount of “helping the situation” on the part of the woman is going to make him do so, and in fact may be a turn off.

So, talking to a hottie first, trying to make a date happen, bad idea. Generally if you see or meet a guy that you could see yourself being interested in, it really is best to shut up and let him ask you, even if it’s further down the road than you’d prefer.

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Filed under Book Reviews, Dating, Female dignity, Men, The Rules

Rule #1 – Be a “Creature Unlike Any Other”

OK, back to The Rules. Finally we are done going through the introductory chapters and are ready to get into the rules themselves.

Rule #1 is Be a “Creature Unlike Any Other”.

Every time I come across this phrase in the book I giggle. It’s a rather ludicrously worded way to state an important concept; that every woman has dignity and is worthy of respect.

The Rules, remember, were written for women who chased men but couldn’t understand why men didn’t want to marry them. So the authors tell their readers that they are to cultivate an attitude of radiance and confidence. It’s about developing a positive frame of mind. Believing that we live in a universe of abundance, Rules women don’t settle, chase anyone, or use sex to make men love them. It’s about believing in love and marriage and purging cynicism from their thoughts.

A lot of this is pretending, but whatever we pretend to be, we become.

[If you’re feeling insecure] You tell yourself, “Any man would be lucky to have me,” until it sinks in and you start to believe it.

One of the most freeing things that is in the book is giving permission to women to not have to do anything on a date beyond show up.

He’ll either love you or not. It’s not your fault if he doesn’t call again.

Yet, they do go into what a Rules Girl is like on a date.

On a date, you never show that getting married is foremost on your mind. You’re cool. […] You let him find out all about you, instead of the other way around. Your answers are light, short, and flirtatious. Your gestures are soft and feminine. All your movements […] are fluid and sexy, not jerky or self-conscious.

Sometimes, lonely, angry men think that women have all the sexual power but let me tell you guys, a lot of women think the same about men. So this chapter is a reminder to women that they do have power and that there is no reason to give everything away to men who don’t love them. Women have dignity and that should show up in the way they act.

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Filed under Book Reviews, Dating, Female dignity, The Rules